C W MANGUM, Sworn In For The State, 35th To Testify

Reading Time: 29 minutes [4923 words]

C. W. MANGUM, sworn for the State.

I had a conversation with Mr. Frank at the jail about seeing Conley

and confronting him. Conley was on the fourth floor. Chief Beavers,

Chief Lanford and Scott came down to see Mr. Frank with Conley and

asked me if they could see him. I went to Frank and told him the men

were there with Conley and wanted to talk with him if he wanted to see

them. He said, "No, my attorney is not here and I have nobody to defend

me. " He said his lawyer was not there; that no one was there to

listen at what might be said.

N. V. DARLEY, recalled for cross-examination.

On the ground floor the door to the Clark Woodenware Company

was nailed up immediately after that company left there. We found it

broken open after the murder and we nailed it up again. It was two or

three days after the murder. Sitting at Mr. Frank's desk, the most that

one can see is about half of clock Number 2, which is on the left of clock Number 1.

If the safe door was open in the outer office, you have no view into

Mr. Frank's office from the outside. You might tiptoe and look over the

door. A man of my height could just tiptoe and see over it. The packing

room next to Mr. Frank's office works from 11 to 17 ladies and men.

Passing by elevator shaft as you go in building on ground floor, you come

to a door to Clark Woodenware Company's place, which was nailed up

immediately after that company left there. We found it broken open after

the murder. I don't know what day, it must have been two or three

days after, and we nailed it up again. (Witness identifies various portions

of factory from the factory model-Defendant's Exhibit 4). There

is no lounge, sofa, cot or bed in the whole factory. I found two boxes down in the basement in Clark Woodenware side of old dirty, rotten

stuff, too dirty and rotten for a human being to rest upon. It's boggy in

there. They had on top of them some dirty, filthy, nasty crocus sacks.

There is no lojinge(*lounge), bed, sofa or anything of the sort in the metal room. I have never seen a chair in there. I have never seen any blood under the machine that Barrett claims he found hair on. I never saw any blood on the place the negro claims the little girl's body was lying. You can

get into the metal room either from the front or the back if the back door

is open. You can lock the back door from the inside. There is a cross

bar across the door. The rule was to keep it locked, but a great many

times I found it unlocked. It was very dark around the elevator on the

first floor on April 26th. It was a cloudy day and darker than usual because

the front doors were closed. It's too dark to stand on the outside

and see through the elevator. I left the factory with Mr. Frank on his

way to Montag Brothers. I never saw Jim Conley that day. I never

saw Mr. Frank talk to him or speak to him or come into contact with him

in any way that day. I have never goosed or pinched Jim Conley or jollied

with him. I kicked him when I caught him loafing, and sometimes I

would take a piece of board to him and he would laugh every time I did

it. I have never seen Mr. Frank goose or pinch him or play with him or

jolly him. No, I never knew Daisy Hopkins. I have never seen Dalton

until this morning. From June, 1912, until January, 1913, I left the factory

at twelve o'clock on Saturdays, and usually came back between five

and six. I did that most every Saturday during the two years that I

have been there. I may have missed sometimes, but not many. Only on

one occasion do I recall that Mr. Frank said he would not be there on

Saturday afternoon. I would visit the factory every Saturday afternoon between five and six to find out how the financial was for the week. I found Mr. Frank in his office on every occasion except the one I have mentioned above. Mr. Schiff would help him on the financial. A few

Saturdays I have gone there and Mr. Schiff was not there. He may have

been on his vacation. I hire and discharge all the help. I came in contact

with the help ninety per cent more than Mr. Frank. Mr. Frank has

nothing to do with employing or discharging them. On Saturday, Holloway

is supposed to leave the factory at four o'clock and the night

watchman comes on. We had no negro night watchman there last September as stated by Mr. Dalton. Our night watchman was Mr. Kendricks, a white man. The first time we ever hired a negro night watchman was three weeks before the murder. As to who else stayed at the factory on Saturday afternoons, usually the office boy, sometimes the

stenographer, Walter Pride, who cleans up the third floor. I have never

known any other time but Saturday that the financial sheet was worked

on, except possibly a holiday. I saw Conley on Monday. He looked to

be excited and when I spoke to him he failed to look up as he usually

does. I went around the factory that morning and looked at everybody

to see if I could pick out a man that looked suspicious, and Jim Conley

was the man I thought looked most suspicious. The latter part of last

year I issued orders that the sweepers must stop cleaning up by twelve

o'clock and if they hadn't cleaned up by that time they would have to

knock off and leave the factory. If they stayed there after twelve o'clock

I didn't know anything about it. Harry Denham usually stayed in the

factory every other Saturday afternoon to clean the motor and oil the

machinery and he selected someone to stay with him. He would do this about twice a month. The girls in the packing department did quite some overtime work on Saturday afternoon.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I have made no contribution toward the fund to defend Frank. I

don't know anything about Daisy Hopkins' general character. I don't

know who nailed up the door on the Clark Woodenware side. Lots of

people have been there all over the factory. If a body had been shot

down the chute, behind those boxes, it would have been hidden more than

where it was found. The boxes around the chute are piled nearly to the

top. I never noticed any difference in the boxes Sunday from what I left

them there Saturday. No, I don't know anything about Conley being

there Saturday afternoons and watching. He wasn't there by my instructions. There is a good deal of water on the floor of the metal room.

On pay day in order to keep the people from coming down the back, the

instructions are always to close the back door to the metal room. There

is no special reason for the paint to go out of the polishing room, but it is

out in other places. It is carelessly done. You can see haskoline scattered

around. The floor in metal room where body is supposed to have

been found has a rise of several inches in it, something like an edge. As

to whether a man standing up and looking over the safe door hasn't got

a vision going beyond the clock so that he could see everybody that reg-

istered, he couldn't see it. I tried it. I don't know whether either the

clock or the desk has been moved before I went to see. My recollection

is that the table is nailed to the wall and the clock screwed to the table.

You can tear the whole thing up and move it. The desk could not be

moved without my knowing it. I didn't have the clock fixed after April

25th.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.

On Friday last I made an experiment by sitting at Frank's desk and

leaned over as far as I could see through the outer door towards the clock. I could see half of the circle on clock # 2. I could not see any of the other clock at all. The clock and desk could not have been moved without my instructions. The paint is scattered all round. It gets all over

the place and we can't prevent it. We never have washed the metal

room floor since I have been there. We never found any water or blood

where it was said the girl's body was found in the metal department.

The view I got from front door on April 26th into area around elevator

shaft was blocked by boxes.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I communicated immediately with the police when we found the

blood back there. I think Harry Scott was the first man I reported Conley's

nervousness to. It was on Monday, April 28th.

E. F. HOLLOWAY, recalled for cross-examination.

I am the day watchman and time keeper. I look after the register to

see that everybody registers. No, it was not a habit of Conley to register

or not as he pleased and to get his pay anyhow. If he didn't register

I always got after him. I applied the same rule to him as I did to anybody

else. I never saw Mr. Frank goose, pinch or joke with Conley. I

never saw him touch him in any way, unless it was when he would go in

the office to borrow money, I would see him hand him a quarter, or something. He surely was a good hand at borrowing, but Mr. Frank would

never let him have a nickel but what he owed him. Up till twelve months

ago the sweepers stayed at the factory until about 2:30, but then they

made a rule that any sweeping that wasn't done by noon on Saturday

would have to go over until Monday and since that time no negroes have

been there since 12 o'clock. We never had any negro nightwatchman in

July, August, September, or any time last fall. We never had a negro

night watchman until we hired Lee, which was about three weeks before

the murder. Since June of last year, on Saturday afternoons, I always stayed around the factory and looked after seeing that nobody came in or out, unless they had business. I never have seen anybody goose Conley. Sometimes I would kick him to make him go on to his work. The door that leads to the Clark Woodenware place never was locked. It was nailed up when the Clark Woodenware moved out of there. I nailed it

up myself. It was open on the Monday after the murder. It led back to

a chute in the rear, and to two water closets on the right. Nobody occupies

that now, I was at the factory every Saturday since last June excepting

legal holidays when the factory was shut down. I did not miss

a single Saturday in July, August, September, October, November, December, and January, excepting legal holidays. On Thanksgiving Day

I stayed there until 12 or 1 o'clock. I have never missed a Saturday

since I have been working at the factory. I would be relieved on Saturdays

at 4:30 p. m. I would go all over the building trying to see that

everything is all right. That was my business. I have never known Mr.

Frank to have any woman on Saturdays excepting his wife. She came

there on Saturdays and went home with him, about once a month. Mr.

Schiff helped Mr. Frank on his books on Saturdays. Conley never did

watch the door down stairs. If he did, it must have been after 4:30 p. m.

I never did see him giving signals to Mr. Frank and Frank giving him

signals from upstairs. I was obliged to have seen them if he had watched the door. I sat mainly in the front of the building to see that nobody came in building. I do not recall any Saturday afternoon that Frank and Schiff missed except when Schiff was off on his vacation. I have never seen any of them bring any women in there or take any out. I have never been sick or missed a single Saturday since last year. I would leave about

4:30 Saturday afternoon. I have never seen Dalton in the factory at all.

I wouldn't have let a fellow like that in the building unless I knew what

his business was. There was nobody practicing any immoralities in the

building. If they did I would know it. I would have put them out

quickly. Daisy Hopkins quit sometime in May or June last spring. She

has never been there since she quit. Mr. Darley left the factory between

9 and 10 o'clock on April 26th. He was not there after 11 o'clock

at all. If he was, he was there after 11:45, the time I left there. I have

never seen the front doors locked on Saturday. I was at the factory until

noon on Thanksgiving Day. I saw no girls with white shoes and stockings

there that day. I never saw Jim Conley that day. I never saw any

woman at the factory that day. I sure would have seen Conley had he

been watching the door that day. I have seen Mr. Frank at the factory

every Saturday afternoon after he comes back from lunch. I would pass

in and out of his office three or four times in the afternoon. I have never

seen a glass of beer as long as I have been there. I have never seen any

women up there. He would be working on his books. Mr. Schiff would

be helping him. The stenographer and shipping clerk would sometimes

be up there. People would be liable to drop in there on business and I

would send them up to Mr. Frank's office. I always kept the door on

Saturdays. I never turned it over to Conley or anybody else. I have let

Mrs. Frank in and would tell her to go up in the office and have a seat.

This man Wilson worked on Saturday afternoon most all the time. Oiled up the motor and cleaned it while the factory was closed. Pride, Harry Denham, Charlie Lee, and Fast usually worked there on Saturday oiling the machinery after they shut down and different things. They were not shut off by any doors from going anywhere they wanted in the factory. They were liable to come down and around any time. I have never seen the doors either to the outer or inner office of Mr. Frank locked. They have got glass fronts in them that you can see through, and it would not have done any good to have shut them. The windows in Mr. Frank's

office looked right out on Forsyth Street. The shades to them are torn

up so they don't amount to much. In the morning they will pull them

down-n to keep the sun out. When they are up you can see across the

street. Salesmen frequently visited Frank on Saturday afternoons

when they came in from their runs without any announcement. I have

never known Mr. Frank to refuse to see any of them. It is very dark

about the elevator shaft on the ground floor. The shaft is about ten or

twelve feet from the steps. If a girl was coming down the steps and a

man was in that dark place it would be a very easy job for him to throw

her down the shaft. He could grab her before she ever saw him because

she would be looking toward the door. The members of the firm of Montag

Brothers frequently visited the factory on Saturday afternoons. I

remember seeing Drayman Mc Crary on April 26th. He came around to

see if there was any hauling. I don't remember the time. I never saw

Conley on April 26th. If he was there he was skulking around and hiding.

I never saw Mc Crary talking to him that day. On Monday morning

I saw Conley, instead of being upstairs where he ought to be sweeping,

he was down in the shipping room watching the detectives, officers

and reporters. I caught him washing his shirt. Looked like he tried to hide it from me. I picked it up and looked at it carefully and it looked

like he didn't want me to look at it at all. The day before that he went

out with a pair of overalls corresponding to this blue shirt that he has,

and he said he wanted to carry them to a negro at Block's candy factory

and he had not had time to have gone to the candy factory before he came

back and said that they were taking stock over there and would not let

him in. The overalls had been washed and dried and I could not tell if

there is anything on them or not. I don't know whether he can write or

not. At your request today I walked from the middle of the car track at

the corner of Broad and Hunter to the pencil factory and then upstairs

in Mr. Frank's office. I walked just in an ordinary way like I thought a

lady would walk. It took me two and a half minutes. I walked from the

corner of Marietta Street and Forsyth Street to the pencil factory. It

took me six minutes.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I didn't have any conversation with Kendrick, the night watchman,

since this murder was committed as to whether or not Frank ever called

him after he left the factory that night. No, I did not try to get Kendrick

to swear that. No, I didn't tell Whitfield the day before they turned up

that big club" Be sure to come back tomorrow, you will be certain to find

something. " So far as I know the general character of Daisy Hopkins

is good. I don't remember telling you the contrary. I don't deny signing

that affidavit (Exhibit "I," State). I don't remember telling you in

this paper (Exhibit "I," State), "She is anything but a nice girl. You

can't depend on what she says. " Yes, I said it in the affidavit I gave it

was 10:45 when Mr. Frank and Mr. Darley left. Mr. Frank got back

about 11 o'clock. That was all guess work about the time they left. I

never said anything about getting the reward for Jim Conley. I told

some of the detectives several days after they came down after the negro

if this negro is convicted he is my negro. I knew about the reward being offered. If I told you that I sometimes left the factory at three o'clock I meant four o'clock. Jim Conley worked regularly at the factory except when he was in the stockade thirty days. Conley registered every morning, but a lots of times he would not register at dinner and sometimes at night. I nailed up the door that leads into the Clark Woodenware place

on Monday because we never let that door stand open. Mr. Darley told

me to do it. I know it was not open on Saturday. It was nailed up Saturday

noon when I left there and it was open Monday when I got there.

The chutes back there were nailed up. The one next to the rear end of

the building I know was nailed up to keep the Clarke Woodenware people

from coming up through there. Boxes were piled up back in there.

That stairway back there has been nailed up for some time. Hasn't been

used since Christmas. If the negro went out and bought beer I didn't

know it. I never saw him. I don't recollect whether the drayman was

up there April 26th to get his pay or not. There was so much excitement

in the factory on Monday that we shut down about 9:30. Nobody stayed

at their work. Jim Conley quit work like everybody else and went out.

As to one thing that Conley did that the others didn't do I haven't got

any. The short* (shirt) he was washing was the same short* (shirt) he had been wearing all day. I say that he was trying to hide the shirt because he was trying to push it over behind the pipe where you couldn't see it. He had the shirt on when he was arrested. He was not trying to hide it then.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION.

I was subpoenaed to Mr. Dorsey's office by regular court subpoenas.

I thought I had to go there. There were three or four men when I got

there.

GEORGE EPPS, re-called for cross-examination.

I was present on Sunday after the murder when a gentleman came

out to the house and talked to me and my sister about when was the last

time we had seen Mary Phagan. He didn't ask me, he asked my sister.

I wasn't there. I was in the house. I didn't hear him ask my sister that.

HARRY SCOTT, re-called for State.

It took Jim Conley two or three minutes to write out the notes that

I dictated to him.

CROSS EXAMINATION.

I knew on Monday that Mrs. White claimed she saw a darkey at the

pencil factory. I gave that information to the police department. Mr.

Frank gave me the information when I first talked to him. I never inquired

of Frank or any of the pencil factory people if Conley could write.

Sunday, May 18th, I was present when Conley made his statement. May

18th. I wrote it out myself. (Defendant's Exhibit 36). He made no

further statement on that day. He stated that he did not go to the pencil

factory at all that day. At that time I knew he could write. He told

me everything that was in that statement. The information that Conley

could write came from the pencil factory on May 18th. On May 18th I

dictated to Conley these words: "That long tall black negro did by himself. "

I dictated each word singly and I should judge it took him more

than six or seven minutes to write it. He writes quite slowly. When he

was brought before Mrs. White to see if she could identify him he was

chewing his lips and twirling a cigarette in his fingers. He didn't seem to

know how to hold on to it. He could not keep feet still. He positively denied

on May 18th that he had anything to do with the murder of Mary

Phagan and that he was at the factory at all. We talked very strongly

to him and tried to make him give a confession. We used a little profanity and cussed him. He made that statement after he knew that I knew he could write. We had him for about two or three hours that day. He made another statement on May 24th which was put in writing. (Defendant's Exhibit 37). He was carried to Mr. Dorsey's office that day

and went over the statement with Mr. Dorsey. He still denied that he

had seen the little girl the day of the murder. He swore to all that the

statement contains. That statement was a voluntary statement from

him. He sent for Mr. Black and we went there together. We questioned

him again very closely for about three hours on May 25th. He repeated

the story that he told in his statement of May 24th. We saw him again

on May 27th in Chief Lanford's office. Talked to him about five or six

hours. We tried to impress him with the fact that Frank would not have

written those notes on Friday. That that was not a reasonable story.

That showed premeditation and that would not do. We pointed out to

him why the first statement would not fit. We told him we wanted another

statement. He declined to make another statement. He said he

had told the truth. On May 28th Chief Lanford and I grilled him for

five or six hours again, endeavoring to make clear several points which

were far fetched in his statement. We pointed out to him that his statement

would not do and would not fit. He then made us another long

statement on May 28th (Defendant's Exhibit 38), having been told that

his previous statement showed deliberation; that that could not be accepted. He told us then all that appears in the statement of May 28th.

He never told us anything about Mr. Frank making an engagement for

him to stamp for him and for him to lock the door. He told us nothing

about seeing Monteen Stover. He did not tell us about seeing Mary Pha-gan. He said he did not see her. He didn't say he saw Lemmie Quinn.

Conley was a rather dirty negro when I first saw him. He looked pretty good when he testified here. Frank was arrested Tuesday morning at about 11:30; on May 29th we had another talk with him. Talked with

him almost all day. Yes, we pointed out things in his story that were improbable and told him he must do better than that. Anything in his story

that looked to be out of place we told him wouldn't do. After he had

made his last statement we didn't wish to make any further suggestion

to him at that time. He then made his last statement on May 29th (Defendant's Exhibit 39). He told us all that appears in that statement.

We tried to get him to tell about the little mesh bag. We tried pretty

strong. He always denied ever having seen it. He never said that he

saw it in Frank's office, or that Frank put it in his safe. We asked him

about the parasol. He didn't tell us anything about it. He didn't tell

us anything about Frank stumbling as he got on the street floor at the

elevator and hit him. Since making this statement on May 29th I have

not communicated with Conley and have not seen him. He never told us

that he came from his home straight to the factory. He denied knowing

anything about the fecal matter down in the basement in the elevator

shaft. He never said he went down there himself between the time he

first came to the factory and went to Montag's. He never said he thought

the name of the little girl was Mary Perkins. He never said anything at

all about Mary Perkins. We pressed him that day as to whether he saw

Mary Phagan or not. He finally told us that he saw her dead body. He

never did tell us that he heard a lady scream though we asked him about

it. He said he did not hear anybody scream while he was sitting on the

box. He said he didn't hear anything at all that day. He never said any

thing about Mr. Frank having hit her, and having hit her too hard. He

never said anything about somebody running on tiptoes from the metal

department and back again. He said he did not hear any stamping. He

did not tell us anything about Mr. Frank tell- Ing him how to lock the door. He did not tell us anything about Frank having a cord in his hand at the top of the steps or that Frank looked funny about his eyes or that his face was red. He didn't tell us that he went back there and found the little

girl with a rope around her neck and a piece of underclothing or that he

went back to Mr. Frank and told him the girl was dead, or that he wrapped

her in a piece of cloth. He said it was a crocus sack. He did not say

anything about Mr. Frank saying "Sh-sh. " He didn't say that he put

the sack on his shoulder and that body dangled round about his legs. He

said he never saw the ribbon; didn't know where it was. We asked him

whether there was any thought of burning the body and he said not. He

didn't know anything about that. He never said anything about his

promising to come back and burn the body or that he said to Mr. Frank

"You are a white man and done it, and I am not going down there and

burn it myself;" or that Mr. Frank had arranged to give his bond and

send him away; or that Frank said he would have a place to get in by

when he came back to burn the body, or said he owed a Jew ten cents and

paid it. He did not tell us of any conversation he had with Mr. Frank on

Tuesday after the murder in which Mr. Frank said "If you had come

back on Saturday and done what I told you there wouldn't have been

any trouble. " As to the scene between Conley and me when I undertook

to convince him that I knew he could write on Sunday, May 18th, I called

him up at Chief Lanford's office, gave him a paper and pencil and told

him that we understood he said he couldn't write and now we knew he

could write and we wanted him to write what we told him. He sat there

and looked at us while we were talking and I told him to write as I dictated

and he picked up the pencil and wrote immediately. We convinced

him that we knew he could write and then he wrote.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

I got information as to Conley writing through my operations while

I was out of town. Mc Worth told me when I returned. I got no information

personally about Conley being able to write from the pencil company

people. Personally I did not get information as to Conley's being

able to write from pencil company. I got it from outside sources, wholly

disconnected with the pencil company. As to whom I first communicated

anything about Mrs. White's statement about seeing a negro down there,

my impression is I told it in my many conversations with Black, and

Chief Lanford and Bass Rosser. Don't know the day. It was shortly

after April 28th. After Conley made his last statement Chief Beavers,

Lanford and I went to the jail with Conley and saw the sheriff and he

went to Frank's cell. The last time I saw Frank was Saturday, May 3rd.

As to whether Mr. Frank refused to see me, only through Sheriff Mangum,

as to the number of matters I told Conley didn't fit the first time

and those I told him didn't fit the last time, I could not name those, that

would almost be impossible unless I had the statement clear in my head.

I never suggested what to put in or what to substitute or what to change.

They came from Conley himself.

THE STATE RESTS.

EVIDENCE FOR THE DEFENDANT.